Snell: Now that I’m working for IBM’s WebAhead group, building and supporting applications that are being used by tens of thousands of my fellow IBMers, I haven’t come across a single use case where WS-* would be a suitable fit. Obasanjo: The only times I encounter someone with good things to say about WS-* is if it is their job to pimp these technologies or they have already “invested” in WS-* and want to defend that investment. Vinoski: Finally, I realized that WS-* was simply not worth it to any customer or to me. I remember the days when it was basically just Mark Baker and me shouting “The WS-King has no WS-clothes and there are WS-bleeding-sores on his WS-butt!” The easy advice for the CIOs and CTOs of the world is “Just don’t buy that crap”. The more difficult advice is “In future, carefully consider the motives and world-views of those who were trying to convince you to buy that crap.” It’s OK, CIOs and CTOs don’t read ongoing. Anyhow, we’re still a minority; I get email every day from people advertising products and services and courses and advice on “SOA Governance”. Motives and world-views, remember?


Comment feed for ongoing:Comments feed

From: Adrian Sutton (Nov 21 2007, at 15:09)

> It’s OK, CIOs and CTOs don’t read ongoing.

I do.

Adrian Sutton

CTO, Ephox


From: Bill de hOra (Nov 21 2007, at 15:28)

"I remember the days when it was basically just Mark Baker and me shouting "

You are joking, right?


From: Paul Downey (Nov 22 2007, at 02:42)

The guys you quoted cracked whips, where as I was just a lowly slave building the tower of WS-Babel, none the less, if you are still involved in this increasingly irrelevant debate, you might like to follow this helpful advice "if you care about not wasting lots of your customers' time and money, unless you are developing a service for a single consumer who demands them, I would strongly advise you DO NOT use WS-* at all."

you might also like to gander at my attempt to visualise the world of Web services:


From: Steve H (Nov 22 2007, at 05:54)

I really don't get the antogism against WS-*. With WFC, it's actually very easy to create communicating apps. Just annotate my interface, generate the client, and I'm done. Best thing is I don't have to look at XML, only OO interfaces. Adding security and transactions is also pretty easy. What's the problem?


From: AT (Nov 22 2007, at 06:22)

Are there really so few of us who can see through these things early enough?

Does it really have to take so long and so much wasted "evangelizing" before we realize how stupid these things are?


From: bryan (Nov 22 2007, at 08:38)

Bill de Hora is much too polite to shout.

I sometimes think I should have stuck with my old job cause right about now I could be coming in every morning yelling hey guess who's here, People?! I'll give you a hint, it's the guy who spent the last 4 years telling you SOAP sucked. Give UP??!!??!

I still remember when Gartner told them that Rest had won. The guy in charge of multi millioner dollar project came to me with his voice choked up and tears in his eyes, I heard that Rest won, he said. God I'm evil for enjoying that.


From: Harry Fuecks (Nov 22 2007, at 17:37)

Credit to Sam Tregar who called it back in 2004 -

If we want to prevent this from ever happening again, architects should be forced to spend 4 out of 5 days coding and to do it in Perl, not Java.


From: Aristotle Pagaltzis (Nov 23 2007, at 08:00)

Steve: read the _Types and Documents_ section of Joe Gregorio’s _REST and WS-*_:


From: rfgunning (Nov 25 2007, at 14:12)

WS-* SOA is SOL and DOA?


From: Doug K (Nov 26 2007, at 10:33)

The problem is, an awful lot of WS-* web services have escaped into the wild during the years of arguing about it. Those now constitute a massive legacy system which will have to be supported until the heat death of the Internets..

WS-* may not live, but it's not going to die either.


From: Aristotle Pagaltzis (Nov 26 2007, at 15:33)

Dough: we must be seeing very different wilds. The bonmot goes that there are more SOAP stacks than SOAP services on the open internet. Can you point to any substantial public WS-* services (not minimal stock tickers or other toys) and give at least rough estimates for the number of clients that use them?


author · Dad · software · colophon · rights
picture of the day
November 21, 2007
· Technology (77 fragments)
· · Web (386 fragments)
· · · Services (61 more)

By .

I am an employee
of, but
the opinions expressed here
are my own, and no other party
necessarily agrees with them.

A full disclosure of my
professional interests is
on the author page.